Episode 35: Menopause, endings and the wisdom of change
After a pause, Women of the Well is back for Season 2.
In this conversation, Dr Peta, Dr Thea and Sam sit together in a very real season of life transition – talking about menopause, ageing, endings and the one thing most of us are trying to avoid thinking about: death.
🎙️ In this episode, we talk about:
🌿 Sam’s real-time experience of perimenopause – still cycling at 51, noticing stronger bleeds, night waking and hot flushes that arrive like a clear “message” from her body.
🌿 Listening instead of resisting – how tuning into symptoms (rather than fighting them) has helped Sam adjust her training, eating and lifestyle in ways that feel right for her.
🌿 Why menopause isn’t just decline – the cultural story that says menopause “takes everything away” versus the reality of greater freedom, time, clarity and physical strength many women experience in midlife.
🌿 Anxiety, mood shifts and the luteal phase – Peta and Thea share candidly about premenstrual anxiety, irritability and “existential dread”, and how naming these patterns with family helps.
🌿 Ageing, fear and the medicalisation of menopause – a critical look at the booming “menopause industry”, the framing of oestrogen deficiency as a disease, and the idea that all women should be on hormones forever.
🌿 Death as the unspoken backdrop – how our fear of mortality shows up in the obsession with trying to keep bodies the same, and why accepting change can soften this fear.
🌿 Suffering, growth and feeling it all – the difference between caring for our bodies and micromanaging them, and why discomfort can be a portal to meaning and maturation rather than something to eliminate at all costs.
🌿 From attraction to resource – shifting from needing to be sexually “attractive” to being valued for presence, wisdom, skills and contribution as we age.
🌿 Competing, comparing and complaining – how these patterns keep us stuck in misery about our changing bodies, and what opens up when we practise acceptance instead.
🌿 Soul, spirit and the unchanging self – returning to the part of us that doesn’t age, even as our bodies inevitably do.
A reflective invitation as you listen to this episode:
Where are you feeling pain, discomfort or resistance right now?
If you treated those sensations as messages rather than problems to fix, what might they be asking of you?
How could you allow what is happening – rather than trying to control or outrun it – and see what unfolds next?
Resources mentioned:
“The Thunder, Perfect Mind” – an ancient poem from the Nag Hammadi / Dead Sea Scrolls collection, often read as a voice of the divine feminine.
Stay connected – the conversation doesn’t end here.
If this episode brought up reflections, questions or stories of your own menopause experience, the Women of the Well team would love to hear from you.
Share your thoughts or topic requests for future episodes via email to marketing@verawellness.com.au and let us know:
What are you noticing in your own season of change – and what might your body be trying to tell you?
Episode transcript
E35: Menopause, endings and the wisdom of change
[00:01:00] Hello and welcome back to Women of the Well. I'm Dr. Peta Wright. I'm Dr. Thea Bowler. And I'm Sam Lindsay German. So we have returned, even though when we last left you back in, was it the end of May, almost June, we were feeling like potentially we were complete with what we had to say.
Um, and we wanted to have a pause because I think it's really important to us that what we talk about has a purpose. And we just really felt like we needed to have a bit of a, a bit of a rest from, um, podcasting. But in the last, which has been excellent decision, and in the last little while we've been talking to each other and, some of the things that we're talking about together could be useful to you guys, which is why we've decided to, um, come back and have, um, a another season.
[00:02:00] Oh, perfect. So what have you been doing, Sam, since we last left you in May?
I'm not sure that I do anything different. I'm pretty sure that my life carries on all the same actually.I'm not sure if there's been anything new.
You are the number three CrossFit champion in your age group in the, the state or the country?
The country. The country. Oh my God. I think it might be Asia Pacific. Oh my God.
And how old are you now, Sam? I'm now 51. Mm-hmm. Can you talk to us about, um, yeah, I suppose, 'cause I guess what we wanted to talk about today Yeah. Was, um. Through the lens of menopause, thinking about why as a culture and as a society, we have such a difficulty contemplating endings, contemplating death. And how menopause fits into all of that. So can you, on that topic, fill us in on where you are in your menopause journey?
Yes. That's, um, quite interesting. So I have in my mind because yogically, uh, you enter menopause at [00:03:00] 52. That's what we say in the yoga world. But I'm now, I'm 51 and I'm still bleeding.
So it's unlikely that I'm gonna be in menopause at 52, maybe in the 52nd year, but not at 52. So I did have a couple of pauses. Um, of my period, it just kind of vanished on me and I actually was quite excited and thought, Ooh, maybe this is it, but then it, this came back, um, which was nice. And, um, but nothing has really changed.
I think my bleed maybe is a little bit, I, I would just say it's a bit more aggressive at the beginning, which I find very fascinating. It's only for a day and I, I just sort of look and go. That's, you know, that's great. Still really red and looking good. And then apart from that, I don't think anything else has changed.
I don't feel like I'm getting, um, any more real menopausal symptoms. I do have hot flushes, but I'm acutely aware that that comes when I'm stressed or when I'm doing something I shouldn't be doing. Hmm. It's literally like my body [00:04:00] is saying. What are you doing? This is not good. It's almost like your body's like, pay attention to this.
I can feel like the heat coming in and I just go, oh, this is a message. Like, this is not what I'm meant to be doing. So I now really listen to that. But that's probably the only time. I sometimes get some night sweats.
Um, but I. It's normally close to when I'm about to get my period and my sleep is probably, uh, I do notice that my sleep can be a bit funny. I wake up in the middle of the night, but I don't really mind waking up in the middle of the night. I just use it as an opportunity to lay there and meditate and breathe and ponder.
I dunno, the quietness and how much I enjoy just being in the quietness.
There probably will be more shifts that I go through. I, I hope so because that's part of the process.
I do get quite a few aches and pains, as you both know, because I complain about my knees and things like that. But I, I just think anyway. I actually put my body through a lot, so it's not surprising. Mm.
Plus sometimes I think it's just [00:05:00] your body saying hello, just reminding you that you have a body and this body has like, the wear and tear comes because we've lived in this body for a long time and I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing all of the time. It's just a message from our body that it's there. Mm. What I got from everything you were talking about just then is like you are resisting none of it, you know? Yeah. Yes. Like, yes. Yeah. This is happening. It's neither good nor bad. No. Well, it doesn't seem to be good or bad, and I think I, I often contemplate.
I'm quite aware that lots of people talk about menopause being a sort of moment where, you know, things really fall away and you get quite clear, um, on your next stage of intentions and, and I feel like that's something that I pay quite a lot of attention to. Right now. I'm really paying attention to where those hot flushes are giving me information.
What can I do about this? What can [00:06:00] I do about this situation, that situation? And also I feel, you know, all my children will have finished school this year. That's quite dramatic. And I had my 25th wedding anniversary. So I feel like I've hit real, um, milestones.
So I sort of physically still am pushing my body and I say pushing 'cause I do train it quite hard, but I really enjoy that. I've been really thinking about that too. Like, am I working out too hard? But I really love how I feel when I work out. Mm. So I enjoy that. And yeah, it's so challenging because of the noise.
Um, the external noise. Influencing. Even for me, I think it's very hard to just let yourself go through the experience because I doubt myself and think, am I, you know, is this right? Is this wrong? Then you hear something and you can be, as I always say, distracted and start getting pulled, and I really have noticed that.
And so a lot of what I've done in the last, I would say [00:07:00] six months, is go back to. Letting go of all this stuff that has influenced me and come much more back into line with what actually feels right in my body. Mm. And I did talk to you about this 'cause I changed how my eating has been back to how I used to eat, and I've gone back to really probably eating much more in tune with how my body feels comfortable in eating.
One of the big things I know lots of women come and see you guys about is weight gain. And I did start to notice a bit of that in the last year. And so that's where I've worked on that sort of. Um, body re composition, not from particularly tracking my macros, which I'm really rubbish at 'cause I hate maths and don't like doing any of those things.
But much more about coming back to listening to my body and not going, oh, I must have this amount of protein and I must do this and I must do that. And in doing those little tweaks of coming back to what feels right for me. I have sorted myself out and actually managed to drop that extra weight that just seemed to suddenly appear.
Mm. So I, I think it [00:08:00] can do that, but I think if you are listening to your body, it's just another message. Mm, that's right. And that's what I took from it, because I didn't feel good, so I thought, well, there must be something in that. Mm-hmm.
Because it's interesting how you said Thea, that Sam allowing herself to go through this transition. Whilst listening to the symptoms and doing what her own body tells her she needs for support or to do for sup to support her. But I don't think that is really online and in a lot of things that we, we hear it's all about all the things as you said, that you have to do in order to, um, stop like your body disintegrating.
To access the win, the, um, the appropriate window for timing. Um, and it's all about like clinging onto the hormones in the previous stage of life rather than allowing this transition to happen. Because if you, if you allow it to happen, you've somehow missed the [00:09:00] boat and then you're going to crumble into a pile of old bones.
Yeah, I mean, I just don't, it just doesn't seem to be true to me. I think I'm. In better physical state now than I was when I was, um, in the early stages of mothering. And probably that's because you have such, you have less responsibility. Yes. In terms of mothering small children, you have more free time to do the things that you actually feel called to do.
A hundred percent. I think that's really important. Why does no one talk about that? Yes, that's really important, 'cause I look back to how I was when I had four small children I was just running and I didn't do anything else and I actually was just exhausted all the time. I was probably starving myself 'cause I wanted to be skinny and I wasn't skinny or I probably was, but you know what I mean? Mm-hmm. I was sort of that where you're just not eating correctly 'cause you're stuffing your face when you're starving.
Mm-hmm. And not actually eating at the right time because you're so busy looking after everyone else. And so I, when I look back at that, that's what I see. I see this woman that was really just hanging [00:10:00] on by a thread, whereas now I feel like it's yeah, it's different. I'm contemplating, I'm thinking I'm making time for myself.
And I think that's hard if we're having children later. Yeah. Um, and that's, I was thinking that, I mean like, so let's think about you two. How old are you both now? 42, 44 mm.
So where, where, I mean, where are you in your menopause. I would say, I think I'm in perimenopause, like I have much less regular cycles having started from a baseline of not particularly reliably regular cycles anyway.
And, um, and feeling the premenstrual time so much more in terms of what my mood is doing. Feeling angry, feeling irritable, feeling almost. I always. Say, it feels like the ground drops away from underneath me and I don't have a steady footing. Um, and yet definitely feeling more like physical aches and pains and things like that [00:11:00] um, like I really struggled this week. I had a really weirdly early period that left me feeling completely last week.
Sorry, last week. Yeah. Left me feeling completely floored. Um, oh. And Yes, but I think I'm lucky. Like I, we talk about it a lot at work and my kids and my husband know that if I say I'm just gonna lie down instead of cook dinner. If that's okay. Mm-hmm. Um, but yeah, I'm definitely feeling it all so much more.
I know I've experienced this and we were talking about this a bit before, but the sort of anxiety that comes before a bleed mm-hmm.
More around that time. That, that is definitely something I am aware of that I have a tendency towards probably more social anxiety. Mm-hmm. And then just more anxiety around, I don't know. Everything. Everything. Yeah. Um, and, and I. It's nice because my girls definitely are aware of it, so they talk about when they get close to their, um, bleed.
That happened to them too, but I [00:12:00] think it does get a bit more, I feel like it's, it's more heightened now for me, so much more. But again, I feel it's messaging. I don't know, you know, what do you feel? Yeah. And because I think we talk about it, it makes it easier. I have. Generally very regular cycle and lately it's probably been a bit more irregular, so a bit, early, which it never used to be.
It would be late, if anything. So I'm day one and so it's like four days early, so it's like a 24 day cycle. And yeah, definitely more physical symptoms from the second half of the cycle. Um, I tend to like, you know, the sensitive parts of me become more sensitive. Um, and, you know, yesterday or because I was expecting my period on Friday, I didn't quite pick it when I cried about how I was feeling.
And then, um, making Jude's lunch yesterday and Rob was like, why is the freezer open? And I said, because I'm still getting things in and out of it. And then slammed the door Really? That really [00:13:00] hard and he just. Looked at me and went to bed. I just was like, okay. And then like the existential dread of, I sent Thea, a message like late last night saying, oh, I don't think we should do this thing that we're, we're planning to do.
What's the point of doing anything? And then I woke up this morning and was like, I wonder if my period will come on Friday. And then went, oh, it's here today. That makes sense.
So true. But that's what we were saying this morning. We were like, part of it is just knowing you have people in your life that you can vent to. And say exactly how you feel and know that it's fine no matter what that feeling is, you know? Yeah. And acknowledging, you know, I, I feel this is the, one of the biggest things is, again, which we talked about a lot last time, but acknowledging as women, how we fluctuate, how we change, how we wax and wane, and how we don't stay the same.
Mm-hmm. So in that. We, and even though I absolutely, um, agree that, you know, the highs of a cycle just aren't the same, I often think this, I think, oh, will there ever be, [00:14:00] will there ever be an estrogen high? And I always think, Hmm, probably not. But the point is, you, you sort of, you are right.
It's the steadiness and then there can feel a bit of a drop. Mm. But in that there's still a change and we change know mm-hmm. How much we want to be seen in the outside world and how much we want to come inward. Mm-hmm. And I think it's, it's that for us as women, um, we're, we are not one thing through the whole month.
No. We're ever changing and we're ever changing across the course of our lives, you know? Yes, exactly. And we always talk about this because it's so interesting how, you know, we go through puberty and we get our first bleed, and that' a wonderful thing, you know, as in a change that is celebrated. It's not something that's dreaded.
And then we go through the process of motherhood, if that's something that people do, and that's something that's celebrated. And then this third change comes, which is menopause. And it's like not the same. Not the same reverence for it. I don't know if it is celebrate. I don't think that [00:15:00] the first period is celebrated as much as like this is the first opportunity for women and young girls to be pathologized.
For sure. And I think with motherhood too, like it's, it's that, yeah, true. Because then it's like the postnatal, all the things that are probably more as a result of societal lack of support. But I guess what I'm saying is there's, yes, it's more acceptance. There's, in terms of like the, um, approach to it.
Yes. There's not this Yeah. Looming dread. It's like, yeah, I was talking to a friend the other day and who, who's in the perimenopause stage, who's a doctor, and um, she, I said, look, it's just another transition, like a second puberty. And she said, well, at least like puberty's a good thing. It gives you something.
And menopause does nothing good. It just takes away. And that's the, the opinion that probably a lot of people have because they associate this part with, um, like the loss of. The cycle, the loss of hormones, the beginning of the aging process, rather than potentially the [00:16:00] gaining of freedom, the gaining of personal power to make the decisions that you, um, with the wisdom that only you have, that you have only now , as opposed to before.
And the like, the awakening, like to a new level of consciousness that we were talking about last week. Like it's, yeah, and just not being, so I think the biggest thing for me that I keep taking away. It is just not needing to be so dependent. On the opinions of others. Mm. Because actually, um, if we go through puberty, we, we really are.
You just think about how young girls are, they're constantly worried because it's nature. We we're trying to compete to find a mate. That's what we're trying to do. So therefore, you're constantly looking around, you comparing and trying to look a certain way and be a certain thing so that you can, I dunno, be the number one female and get the number one male that's the ultimate, um, that we want to do. Yes. It's very biological. Absolutely. And so, and then, you know, in motherhood, we actually need to, we need others to help us because we are doing so much. We actually want that community. However that looks, we still [00:17:00] do it. But then this stage is where we can actually just go, oh, I don't need to do that anymore.
I don't need to worry about, um, as much. If you don't want to, how much you look, you don't need to attract as much. You don't need to be, um. You know, you're not trying to support others in the same way. And so it's, it's different. Yeah. And it's also not just what will you will gain at this transition time, but it's also what will society at large gain from having women who are free of that reproductive, those reproductive years who have gained so much wisdom and experience.
And I worries me, because I always think about this stage from like personal point of view of my patients who are coming in to see me, but also from like a societal point of view. And if we are, you know, from that individual point of view, if all we're worried about is what we are losing and it's this panic and fear, oh my God, I can't, the resistance to even going through the transition at all. And [00:18:00] then the having to focus on all of the things that, like the protein and the exercise that, that someone else tell you to do, and the worry about your visceral fat, your belly and your bone density, your or your hair being dry or your wrinkles and like sex not being the same and your V not looking the same, and like things not being the same and not feeling like yourself.
All of that stuff that we then, then becomes this constant battle, which then means that you lose potentially the, the ease that comes with the wisdom and the experience and the, the flourishing into this next stage. And our daughters lose that too. And our sons lose that.
Mm-hmm. And society at large loses that. Incredible font of wisdom, which, you know, arguably humans were e evolved to have women who were menopausal because it benefited the tribe. Mm-hmm. And so I wonder always like, well what will this whole, like, you know, if we take the, the position of, so we, we got crossed 'cause [00:19:00] we listened to a podcast the other day using very fearful language, basically suggesting that, you know, well, why wouldn't women be on hormones forever? Because estrogen deficiency of menopause is like an unnatural state that is always gonna be associated with death and decay.
And, um, if, if we are really all buying into that. Like we as a collective, we've missed what's actually happening here. That's right. I have always had this vision in my head when I'm listening to those kind of people talk, and sometimes when my patients are talking where like, it's almost like we're turned around looking at the past, trying to cling to something back behind us and no one's actually facing the future and like.
Looking forward to what is to come, you know? Yeah. And embracing what is to come. Absolutely. It, it's, I I find that these things actually bring out my absolute menopausal rage because, well, first of all is what I'm always saying. It's an industry and I can't stand that, that we have [00:20:00] basically been made into an industry, and that's, that's what it is right now.
Menopause is probably the number one, um, wellbeing industry. That's, that's probably grown in the last. Two, three years. Mm-hmm. I don't know what the stats are, but it has to be. And that's all it is. This is people who are preying on people's insecurities by using fear, and pathologizing us in their time when we don't actually need to be pathologized, because let's be honest, people have been going through menopause a long time and that there's this whole thing about women are now living longer than they ever have before, which is not true. Women have lived long for a long time. Mm-hmm. As far as I can work out.
Well, they've had longer life spans than men for a very long time. Well, that's exactly right. Mm-hmm. And so I just feel, um. This is just a part of the fearmongering that means that we then start to bite into the business mm-hmm of menopause. And that just makes me angry because I feel like I, um, I, I know [00:21:00] how much we are all affected by this and how easily we are distracted, and how so many people are willing to jump on this bandwagon and just keep feeding it.
The truth is that actually that is just distracting us all from the real, um, gift of this season of our lives. Mm-hmm. And so if you spend your whole time worrying about whether your bones are gonna crumble, um, which they will, everybody's will. Even if you're a man, that's what happens. Well, even if you take estrogen for the rest of your life, yes.
Your bones still gonna bother. They'll, and they're gonna turn to dust. Yes. And they're gonna decompose. Into the earth. That is exactly right. Well this is And it is. It is the truth of it. Yes. And you will get wrinkles. And even if you fill your face with whatever you want to fill your face with this, the wrinkles are still gonna be there.
All these things are going to happen and one day you are going to die. And the truth is that could happen now, it doesn't have to happen in 25 years time , which is what everyone seems to think once we get to 50, we feel [00:22:00] it's now a God-given right to live beyond 75, but that is just not true.
Mm-hmm. Um, no one knows when the last breath will be. And if you spend every single moment during menopause, fearing whether you are going to have a bone structure, by the time you're 60, then you're missing some of the most powerful moments of your life. 'cause you're not being now here present.
Absolutely. Absolutely. I think that's the biggest thing. Like we always love to think and talk about death. Mm-hmm. Because it is like. The most magical reframing of this precise moment. Yeah. And you always say, Sam, you're like, your next breath isn't guaranteed. No, nothing is like waking up tomorrow isn't guaranteed.
And so do you, do you wanna spend today worrying about your wrinkles or worrying about your belly or worrying about your hair? Like really you'd think, God, if, if I knew that tomorrow was gonna be my last breath, I would be. Doing. Yeah, it so many other things with my time, there was literally, uh, I was talking to a lady who comes to my longevity class yesterday and, um, so she [00:23:00] must be in her seventies and is clearly not worried about menopause or she's definitely not worried about wrinkles, um, or any of those things.
She's actually more worried about staying fit and active. That's what her main thing is. She wants to be able to stay independent for longer so she can live on her property for as long as possible. She was talking to me yesterday about how she's now sleeping with this pillow underneath her so that she can sit upright and sort of sleep relatively upright so that she doesn't snore because she's been told that she has sleep apnea and she doesn't, you know, anyway, she was talking to me about all this, you know, so I'm worried about snoring and I'm worried about this, and I said, well, you know, I'm gonna be really honest with you.
This whole new sleep apnea thing that everyone is talking about and has been for quite some time. I mean, really did. I said, did your mum talk to you about that? Did she have a, and she's like, no. And I said, yeah, you know, it, it's causing you so much stress that you, you know, she's covering her lips so that she's breathing through her nose.
She's doing all these things at night and it just sounds stressful. And I just said, well. Eventually at some point, you [00:24:00] know you will die. And we just don't know what that is of, but all this worry can't be helpful.
Yes. And I literally said that to her. I just thought, the worry from being told you have this and you have this and you potentially have this, I just think, is it worth it?
And it's like the micromanaging our bodies, like we are machines and I do think that there's a difference between, as like we all do things.
To help our body feel healthy, well strong, to keep our minds calm and centered because it feels good for us, right? Um, but it's not driven by a, I want to prevent everything that I possibly can prevent, which I think we all see all the time creates an enormous amount of stress, especially because you can't prevent aging.
And so we're not saying just like go and. Don't, don't worry about your beautiful vessel, but don't worry about it with an intensity that you miss out on the joy and the actual point of being alive. Because [00:25:00] I, I do think that a lot of this, this menopause stuff, the in the realm of, and again, we are not saying that, using hormones to help with debilitating symptoms for that transition period, that's totally fine, but it's just that philosophy that it is a disease that you have to be on hormones forever and manage things with the hundred supplements and Yes. And that our bodies must never change.
Yeah, and it's that thing of Exactly, because when you think about. Like how silly it would be if we were, when we were a teenager or on the cusp of puberty, we're about to go through puberty, everything changes. Mm-hmm. And if we were like, change is always scary for humans and it's probably more scary the closer it gets to the big change, which is going to be death at some point.
Mm-hmm. And I know no one wants to talk about it. And here we are talking about it. Yeah. But I honestly think that so much of the stress and the obsession with recreating a hormonal situation, which is not the new, the new [00:26:00] state that you would naturally be in is about our fear of death.
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm. Because like when people say, I don't feel like myself, you know, this is a new version of yourself. It's like people who in their luteal phase like that, that PMSy part, when they say, I don't feel like myself. I'm like, but also this is a part of you. It's just a different part of you to the.
To the first part that's more acceptable to society and that's right to you. And can you accept all parts of yourself? That's right.
Mm. You are like, you're going, what is going on in my life? I'm going through some amazing transition. I think, why do we have to apologize? Well, I think part of the problem is that actually no one actually knows who they are. And hasn't actually had any time in their lives to sit down and figure out who they actually are.
So the truth is how would anyone actually know who they are, let alone I'm not myself any longer. Mm. Because the, the, I think menopause, as we've discussed many times, is the point where we start to come back to ourselves. Ourselves. And that's what, you know, all philosophies sort of states that as we get [00:27:00] older, we return to our true sense of self, which is hindered during the busy years, of by child rearing, working, you know, caught up in everything in life. But once it starts to get quieter, you start to reconnect with your soul, with your true self, and that is a shift. And so actually. No, I'm pretty sure that they don't know even who they are.
It's that self that pleases others and that does is productive and it does the things that society says they need to do. That is the self that I guess they don't, they are not in the lial phase or in the premenstrual time or in the, um, the menopausal time or per perimenopausal time.
And also we don't really talk very much about the soul, it's all focused on the physical body. And the other part of this podcast was, um, there was a like orthopedic surgeon who was talking about menopause. And she said some people come to see her and they don't, they don't wanna take hormones forever because they feel fine. [00:28:00] And she said, well, I just want them to know that they're not getting away with anything. Because even if they feel fine, they can't feel their bones crumbling and they can't feel their arteries getting clogged and they can't feel their brain deteriorating. And it's like, well, that is ultimately aging and death when we get to the point where our physical body has run its course in this lifetime and we don't need it anymore.
But this is the point that, that what we're basically saying is that we, um, so in order to not have our bones crumble and not have our brains go to marsh or whatever it is, that that's gonna happen.
Yeah. Um, we need to be on medication. And this is where I just really struggle. I just feel like haven't I was saying this to you, haven't we already learned from the oral contraceptive pill that that clearly wasn't the right thing for us all to do and that was created and part of the whole industry and we were all sort of railroaded into [00:29:00] going onto that.
We've all been on that and now they're saying, that wasn't a great idea. We probably shouldn't have done it that way. So is no one sort of going, Ooh, hang on. Is this gonna be what happened in 50 years time? We're all gonna suddenly go. That was not a very clever idea. Why would humans have done that because our body is so really clever.
It knows exactly what it's doing. I mean, does anyone take a medication? I, I mean, I know sometimes, um, people have to take a medication to get pregnant currently, but is anyone taking a medication to sort of, you know, tell the body what to do to keep growing the body and the baby? No, no. It's, it's doing it.
Or when the baby's born, do we take medication? Sometimes we might need some help, but generally speaking, we know what to do to make milk. Mm-hmm. And. I don't know. I just keep thinking the body does, if, if it is in a good state, if it has been looked after, if we are listening to it, it doesn't need a medication to do it.
I agree. There's so much wisdom there and the notion that, that there's this point in [00:30:00] every woman's life that means she has a condition for which she has to take a medication for the remainder of her life. To me, doesn't make any sense. No, and we're starting that so early. 'cause basically we're saying, right, you're about to get your periods, so probably best you go on the pill.
Mm-hmm. So that you don't get pregnant, you don't have this, you don't have that. I don't know, it seems So you don't feel anything, so you don't feel anything premenstrual. You don't feel any pain. You don't have to suffer with any hot flush. Mm-hmm. You don't have to. To have any sleep disturbances. Your mood never changes.
You don't. You can feel always like yourself at one point in time and you never, ever change, which also predispose that suffering is always a bad thing, in which case, which I disagree with because it is where we find meaning in life and growth. And without it we are stunted. And it's almost like this new where we're heading with this like collective thing of everyone needs to be on hormones forever.
We're stuck in this like kind of weird sort of, um. Not a cycling reproductive age, mother or maiden, but this sort of halted [00:31:00] frozen, um, machine stunted Yes. Stunted phase where we cannot, because we can't surrender to what's actually happening in our bodies. And if we, it's kind of like a collective delusion because if we look around everybody got all the, all the older women we know have gone through menopause.
That's right. And they're wonderfully wise, happy women. Mm. I I think that's, that's it. That there is. So basically what we're talking about is there's a lot of people walking through life, um, in this delusional state, and that's, that's a numb, and that's why actually why I think we, um, struggle so much in society.
I know we've put a lot on the pressure on society for women struggling after having children because they don't have communities anymore. But I wonder actually it's because after you've had children, you're unlikely to be on any form of medication because you've been pregnant. And therefore that's why the feelings are so strong and so there, that's why so many women struggle because suddenly for the first time they're going, oh, I'm feeling everything.
Which, I mean, that's, you've literally birthed a baby. There's a lot to feel and there's a lot to experience. [00:32:00] And our society just doesn't allow for it. Mm-hmm. So then we fall apart. And we're very quickly offered something to stop us feeling that.
Mm-hmm. And, and on it goes until the next time. And so it's just, it's making choices, you know, how do we want to move through this one? Weird, wonderful. Slightly painful, sometimes horrifically painful, and other times incredibly glorious life. Hmm. How? How do we want to experience it? Do we want to experience it, feel it, have the sensations that we've been gifted to have in this body because that's what this body is meant for?
Or do we want to not have an experience and not feel anything. Mm, totally. Like we wanna feel it all. And I think we can't up level in any way without going through a period of discomfort. And that's exactly what. The transition, which it is a transition.
It's not a permanent state, but that's what the transition of perimenopause is. And do we allow ourselves to be in that discomfort, to feel it all, to come out the other side? Definitely not feeling like [00:33:00] ourselves, but feeling like someone new and wiser and you know, whatever the change is for each individual.
Mm. Um, I just think. That to me seems like something exciting. Mm. Because nearly all of the distress is, it's not like it used to be. Yes, yes. It's not the same. It's not the same. Or like, sex isn't the same or my libido isn't the same, or my vulva isn't the same, or, um, my tummy isn't the same, but like, but we aren't the same for you.
I looked at my 8-year-old child. And he's not going to stay the same. Like we can grasp that my 8-year-old child Yes. Is going to look different in a year. Yes. And he's gonna look very different in five years. Oh. And in 30. And he's gonna look very different there. And he's and you know, if he was, if he was, if your daughter, she would be well, but, but men don't stay the same.
I mean to no one stay the same. I was just thinking, he just saying that my husband is not the same. He as when I married him, just to be clear and he's not being told that he should take any [00:34:00] medication to change that. Mm-hmm. I mean, I'm pretty sure he get some if he wants. I mean he doesn't need to, but I'm just saying.
Mm-hmm. It's not the same. You know, men go through quite a lot of changes around this time as well. And I mean, I don't know, they, they're not being marketed, they're being examined the same way. No judged aren't not being judged. Yeah, I know. 'cause patients always say that like, you know, my body isn't the same as it was five years ago.
And I often say, but like, your body isn't like it was when you were 20. No. Like it's changed a lot since then. You know, it's. It's a process of change until we die. Yes. It's, it's kind of as well, well, I, I, I don't know when it is. I've been contemplating this, I think about this when I sit with older women.
When is the point in which we stop being obsessed with the body? What I'm saying is there's, there is definitely a point where the actually the wanting to continue just to experience life becomes greater. Am I saying it? Yes, totally. Totally. But it's that I, I, that's what I contemplate wanting to be there to [00:35:00] experience. Another day of listening to the laughter of your grandchildren becomes more important than, I don't know what your stomach looks like.
Yes. It turns from like a self examining, objectifying, running out. And that's, that's the ego, that's the shift of the ego, which of course once we get older, we start to move into more of an etheric state. So I guess that's part of it. And again, that comes from, I don't need to be as, as attractive.
I'm not attracting anymore. And that's the big shift that we, we miss so much in menopause. So the attracting is where we can still whistle in childbearing years. So we have to attract in order to reproduce. Once you are no longer, sort of stuck in that cycle, then you don't have to be attractive because then you are.
Your usefulness comes from your resources, which is internal and the understanding of what you have. So the way I can support my family, the way I can support my children with my knowledge, in the old days, I would've shown people where to get the berries and you know, [00:36:00] the other herbs and things like that.
So, which we can still do. I mean, let's be honest. You can share your recipes, share your, um, amazing. I was talking to Peta about this, the knowledge from all the years of working in your field. Mm. Just keep gathering because one day that's gonna be worth so much. But also that's beautiful in a way that, like, that sexual attractiveness is like, it's completely different.
It's a, it's a, a timeless, incredible beauty that is in all of that, in somebody who has reached a point where they are not needing to like micromanage every aspect of their outer selves because they are present and they're focused on those around them rather than like what wrinkle they have.
And that is a beauty, that is something that we gain at this point. But I wonder like if we're still all trying to be the same, we can never reach that point. Mm. No. And you, if we don't allow it, yes. And yeah. It's, it's, but you're right. The presence, it's, it's also like the society that we live in, that values perfect skin and youth and fertility and beauty above all [00:37:00] else.
So we live, like, we live in a society that doesn't value elderhood, you know? No. Or old age, or there's no like reverence for older people. No. Like, it's almost. Well, the only reverence for it, as far as I can see, is a reverence of people who manage to seem to be defying it. Mm mm So then what we're looking for is, you know, all those people that defy it and not normally through, um, natural measures.
So we are actually all being duped by that as well. And so therefore it's sort of like, oh wow, how are you still managing to look like that? You know, it's, it's interesting 'cause even in the, even in this new phenomena where it's okay now to be gray, um, which is wonderful. It's kind of become now so trendy to be grey, you actually have to be a certain type of grey I just feel like it's endless pressure to be something else and to be something, you know, that fits into the the box.
And I, when you were saying about presence, what really came to me was what I noticed. At this age that I hadn't appreciated so much [00:38:00] more and is coming more and more apparent to me is when I'm in the gym and there are people with young children, I notice things that the young children are doing that I never noticed my children doing.
Like I can be present and see things and be in awe of the transition of children in a way that I did not where my own children were going through that stage. And it actually brings, um, a sense of grief in me slightly that I. And then an also an understanding that I was just too busy.
Mm-hmm. And so I often say to the moms, gosh, it's interesting. I remember being too busy to see that, but now I'm seeing this and it's amazing. Mm-hmm. And that's. Beautiful and I so beautiful. It makes you just think, well, if I can just pause and see that and bring that to the attention of someone, or just do that one thing for that small child that maybe someone else is missing 'cause they're busy, understandably 'cause of their stage of life they're at, then that's, that's perfect.
That's really all I need to do today, and that's what we can bring to the, to the next generation. Well, that's the stillness, you know, [00:39:00] that's the space and the stillness that you have now.
But it would be difficult for you to notice that if you were really caught up in, resisting the changes that are happening to your body. I think there's so much energy that's wasted.
So I suppose we've talked, we've been ragy about the other ragy women, but I guess like, I suppose the essence of what we are trying to say is, and it seems, it's so simple, that it's crazy, is that can we just trust in the wisdom of our own bodies and let our bodies. Just as we did at puberty, knowing that you get through puberty and then your body does the next thing.
And it's the same with this tradition, with this transition. If we just allow and like, yes, there'll be discomfort, yes, there'll be feelings that will come up that are entwined with our society and our environment. Mm-hmm. But if we can just watch what happens when things fall away, if pain arises, if there's discomfort, if there's suffering even, and allow it to happen rather than resist. [00:40:00] Um, then what, what space is created to bring in that, all of those new things that we've just spoken about, because it's much easier over time than just continuing to resist. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
'Cause where does it end? That's the thing. It's never ending.
I was explaining it to someone the other day, like, if you could think about, I just like really like thinking about nature. And there was like one thing that I had read that was about an, a stream that was flowing, a downhill stream and how ridiculous it would be if we all, uh, stood at the bottom of the stream and said flow up because it's not, the nature of it and the nature of our bodies is to change constantly. Whether there's menopause or there's not menopause. Yeah. With time it's to change. And it's the same with like a tree. If you can imagine if the tree as it's like getting all crunchy leaves and it's about ready to, um, shed, its leaves if it was like desperately trying to hold onto them, or if someone outside of it was like going around trying to stick all [00:41:00] of the leaves on how insane that would be.
Yes. Right. Rather than allowing that tree to shed its sleeves and go into this next stage effortlessly.
Absolutely. I was reading something the other day as well, which was like, um, the flower doesn't destroy the bud and the fruit doesn't destroy the flower. Mm. Like they're all beautiful progressions of the same organism.
Yes. You know, and one, we don't see one as being better than the other. We don't see the transition from one to the other as bad. Um, and it's not a loss to lose one of them. Mm. I think that there might be one of the key is partly could, could we, could we stop competing? Mm mm Could we stop competing? Comparing, you know, it's, there's always three Cs actually competing, comparing, complaining, um, because. It's in the competing and thinking we need to keep up with everyone else, that we actually feel that we're suffering. Mm-hmm. So when we say I'm not the same as I used [00:42:00] to be, we're competing with that past self.
Mm-hmm. Or I'm not doing as well as the other person in the office that's just competing with someone else. I don't look as good as the other person. I don't look as good as the person I previously was. You know? Is this constant competing and comparing that causes us just so much misery rather than just an acceptance of where we are.
And, and really learning to love who we are now without looking back, as you were saying in the past, but realizing, did I actually love myself then? Because I, I'm pretty sure most of us will say no. I never actually have fully loved myself and fully accepted myself and fully been okay with who I am, what I'm thinking and what I'm doing, and so do we want to go through the rest of our days not doing that and energy thinking that we need to do something else to find that magic piece.
There is no day that that's going to come. There's only now you will never be a better version of yourself than today. [00:43:00] Hmm. And, and you know, we, we know this, if you look at those lovely pictures of yourself when you were 20 mm-hmm. And you just go, why didn't I think I looked amazing? You know? Yeah. And, and I, I often think that it's the same.
If you took a picture of yourself today and you looked at it again in three years time, you would think that today you looked amazing. So really just, I think that's the key is this place of acceptance and it's not really about menopause, to be honest. I think we get caught up in the names and the, all this stuff, perimenopause, menopause, blah, blah, blah.
Distraction. Yeah. It's just a distraction. It's actually, you know? Yeah. Why? Why is it, why is it that you don't feel like yourself? Why is it that you don't feel happy? Why is it that your body's in pain. Actually sit down, find some quietness, and ask yourself, why, why am I having hot, hot flushes? Trust me, they come for a reason. And, and quite possibly what we all need to do is stop [00:44:00] distracting ourselves by listening to endless podcasts that are telling us how to optimize and actually just, you know, consider what's right for you. If, if it's right for you to lift weights, lift weights. If it's right for you to go for long country walks, do that. If it's right for you to lay down and just sleep for three days and do that. Mm mm There literally is. No. Right.
It's just another way of controlling women. It's like, it's like menopause comes and it's this cusp of like the, potentially the true self comes out. The awakening, unconditioned, self awakening. The awakening. Yeah. But it's all too terrifying because it's at odds with what we have been taught is good or acceptable that it's like, right, let's just, let's just get distracted by this and like just stop it from happening.
Mm-hmm. And, but it's an opportunity. Yeah, it's an opportunity. And if we cannot resist what's coming up in each moment and really like contemplate it as Sam does or examine it, what is happening for me? Not, this shouldn't be happening. We [00:45:00] were talking about this, but because it is happening. Mm. It just is, it is happening and it's supposed to be happening because it is.
And if we can just sit in that, then a lot of our distress will be alleviated. So I guess, we'll we, we could leave today by saying, mm-hmm. Where are you feeling pain, discomfort, um, resistance. Mm. And what is its message? Yeah. And how can you follow it or let it be, or let it play out rather than make it go away?
Mm-hmm. Well, how would that change your, how, how, how can you allow it? Yes. And, and use the, if you're still, if you're still someone who is bleeding, you know, as. You know, use, use that time. Really actually start now. Whatever age you're at, really saying, okay, I'm day one. I'm definitely going to spend some time being quiet and just contemplating what I'm feeling and yes.
And the last thing to say is there actually doesn't, there, there is no evidence that [00:46:00] exists that says that hormone therapy for the rest of one's life creates healthier humans. No, there's no evidence to suggest that. Or longer lifespans. Or longer lifespan.
Yeah. So I just picked up this book today. It's, um, a really, really ancient poem. It was one of the scriptures that was found in the Dead Sea Scrolls. And it's thought to have been written around the time of Jesus or before, and they think from a female writer.
It's a, it's a poem called The Thunder Perfect Mind. And, um, it's known to be or thought to be the voice of the divine feminine. And there are lots of really beautiful things in this poem, but when I picked it up today and just opened it to this page, this one little passage seemed like it was relevant to what we were talking about today.
So it says, for there is a multitude of distractions in the pleasures of the senses and in the realms of being and failure to be true to the [00:47:00] law in the passing of phenomena , which men seek endlessly until they die unsatisfied. And there I am, if they will bow at my feet now and they will live undying.
And I think that's really beautiful. And I think like the other thing is as our body inevitably changes, because it's always going to change 'cause it's a form. There is that one part of us inside soul, spirit, whatever that is unchanging and that is the part of ourselves that is important to come back to and start or cultivate a relationship with.
Because that is the, the part that isn't going to change.
Perfect. Okay. Beautiful.
So thank you very much for being back and listening to us. Uh, we look forward to sharing a few more episodes with you over the coming months. And if there's anything that you would like us to talk about or any opinions or comments that you have about what we are talking about, we would love to hear from you, 'cause it would be nice to be able to interact with [00:48:00] you. So please do reach out however you possibly can.
Or even to tell us about your own experiences. Um, okay. Have a lovely day. Bye. Bye.
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